Gamers could decide format winner

I just finally got an ok collection of regular DVDs. Why am I going to be forced to upgrade to these new discs? I guess it was inevitable, right?



Well, I doubt that the revolution will play HD-DVD or Blu-ray so I wont be watching either format on my console.

"I just finally got an ok collection of regular DVDs. Why am I going to be forced to upgrade to these new discs? "



Nobody's forcing you to upgrade to anything. Your DVD's will not magically stop working once these new formats come out. (Ironically, the same might not be true next time around, given the DRM schemes these guys have got cooked up!)



Anyway, I'll be buying a PS3 anyway, so yeah, I'll use it to watch Blu-Ray movies. Standalone players are always better but I'm not gonna pay an extra $1,000 when I have a perfectly adequate player as it is. Once prices on standalone players come down, I will buy one, but I used my PS2 as a DVD player for a little while and I'll use my PS3 for the same purpose. If nothing else, it's a feature that makes the likely PS3 price tag (and you know it's gonna be somewhere between $300 and $400) a little more palatable.



Game consoles never play movies, music or whatever as well as dedicated players do (the PS2 had really annoying fan noise and bad fast-forward/reverse performance, for example), but I'm sure it'll be good enough to tide me over.

I don't think the population will like switching over to a new format so soon. I do like HD-DVD in that its just a natural progression of current DVD tech, n not an entire new thing such as Blu-Ray. The thing I do not like about Blu-Ray is its limitations on user/consumer rights, in its lack of streaming and storage.

Yeah, I'm with Jody and the barebones Revolution.



I only watch movies on my laptop because it's portable and i'm always on the go. But at home it's via my Media Center. The only non PC reader I'd buy is a jukebox like one that holds a hundred discs for you, so you don't have it load it. If the PS3 could do this, then well, I'd buy it just for that.

I will be watching Blu-ray as I plan to buy a PS3. I doubt I would buy a Blu-ray player out the bat.

How much will the PS3 cost? If the stand alone players are going to retail for around $1800 who in their right mind would even bother making one if you will be able to get a PS3 for $500-$600 dollars. Somebody help me here because this business model does not compute for either the Blue Ray players or the supposed price of the up and coming PS3.

To tell the truth im not sure how the PS3's Blue Ray or the HD DVD will take off because of the limited amount of HDtvs as well as the limited amount of those who can use the high Def signal from the players. HD DVD and Blue Ray will only support HD out Via DVI. Well thats all and good, but out of my 2 hdtvs only the small one in my bedroom has DVI or even HDMI for that matter. If the 360 add on uses the 360 componet out for its hd dvd signal then ill buy it. I like the features of HDDVD like controlled ripping and in movie directory comments and actor look up with bios. Lets hope blueray adds at least the controlled ripping, but i dout they will. I do still plan on getting a ps3 if the games are there. I loved my ps1 and liked the ps2 so lets hope this is a new gen dynamo like the ps1 was for its time. We will see what the future holds for both formats. If neither use componet as their standard then i will be sticking with my on demand HD movies and my DVR. Not to mention upscale dvd players.

"Microsoft's commitment to Toshiba's format and the head start of the 360 might give Hollywood cause to reconsider if enough 360 users begin purchasing games in HD DVD."



Isn't everyone reporting (most importantly, Microsoft) that this add-on will NOT be used for game media? Kinda hard to watch users bying games in HD DVD if there are none to be released.



"But the question remains, how many of you will use your next gen gaming consoles to watch movies?"



Any gamer that has the ability to do so will. If I had a choice between DVD and HD DVD (including Bluray), ofcourse I'll go with what outputs the best quality. Seems a tad obvious to me. Also, it's true I sure wouldn't spend 1800 on a stand-alone player... and even if I was stupid enough to do so, where would I put it? My entertainment cabinet is already full.

You won't have to pitch your DVDs; both HD-DVD and Bluray will have the lasers to read original DVDs.



Personally, I used my PS2 to play DVDs until I could get a player below $150, so yeah, I plan on using my PS3 to play Bluray. Didn't the PS2 help launch DVD into the mainstream? I mean the discs were out, but the players were still really expensive before the PS2 came out. The discs did drop in price, though, so that certainly helped. AND, it took most rental places several years to start a decent collection of DVDs....



all in all, I think Bluray will have a huge boost by the PS3. Since Bluray is Sony's format, I expect them to take huge losses on the PS3 console in order to get millions of Bluray players out to the consumers. Take a $4 billion loss on the consoles, make 10 or 20 times that in the years to come by licensing the Bluray format. Good business plan, though risky, I guess.

Exactly right.



I plan on keeping my dvds for a looooooooooooooooooooong time.



I dont need no HD-DVD nor BRD yet, they offer nothing new, just bigger resolution.



DVDs look nice as they are, why should I get something pricier?



The only good thing that is coming out of this 'format war' is that DVDs will end up like CDs: Way cheaper.

I'll be watching my DVDs on my Nintendo Revolution. I'm not about to replace my movies so shortly after I've purchased them. Five years is NOT an adequate or reasonable time period to decided one media format is no longer preferred. Not to the average consumer, at least.

Hmmm...at the outset of the battle, it appeared as if Toshiba would score the W because of their extensive movie studio backing, but now a lot of those studios have jumped ship. Could Sony actually be on the winning end of a media format war?

my comments on the nyt piece:



regardless of the fact we're at the very beginning of a format war, hi definition dvd's won't even be mainstream for this console generation. it's even been doubted that hdtv will be mainstream during this generation. (i personally think hdtv's will really take off this year and next)



and, ask your friends. ask them if their dvd's are hi definition.



all mine have said "i thought it was." the accelerated ones recited the term "progressive scan" back to me. not only do they not know, they don't care. they are comparing it to vhs. hi definition dvd desires (much less adoption) by the mainstream are still years off.



however, microsoft's optional component is brilliant. it's just that -- optional. they don't care if it sells well. it's a bullet point on the feature list for them. they want to sell systems to sell games. (and, to be a trojan horse, but that's internet delivery driven, not optical drive driven. afterall, who cares about discs when you can just stream or download your movies from your online library.... look at the software industry moves for proof.) movie playback on a console is a loss leader. a feature bullet point. microsoft don't get license revenue from watching movies.



the only one who really cares about the hi-def movie future is sony. that's because they HAVE A MOVIE STUDIO AND MAKE MONEY ON MOVIES!



unfortunately, they've overlooked the fact that their push for blu-ray in the ps3 is going to lead to channel conflict.



http://m3mnoch.wordpress.com/2006/01/06/the-blu-ray-of-damocles/



m3mnoch.

I use the 360 to watch movies now

As a follow up to darryl and a clarification to the original post, MS only plans to use the HD-DVD add-on to play movies, not games (you can find this in any CES report as well as on Engadget's interview with Billy G http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/09/the-engadget-interview-bill-gates-again/ ). The drive will play games on it, but there will be no games designed specifically for it. Instead, all 360 games are and will continue to be designed for the DVD-9 spec, which the 360's internal drive supports (though the new external HD-DVD drive will likely be backwards compatible to the DVD-9 spec as well).

I don't have an HDTV yet, but I do have a 360. I love the graphics on the 360 without HD, but I do plan to get an HD TV when the prices meet my willingness/ability to afford one. I like the current DVD format, and if the only difference in DVD and HDDVD/BlueRAy is the ability to see your movies in HD, I don't really care that much right now. Are there any "New" features provided by the new formats besides Blueray's making it harder to copy or transfer to another device? If not, I see no reason to rush out and buy a next gen format movie playing machine.

I'm a lifelong Nintendo fan and even I'm gonna get a Playstation 3 just because It will be the cheapest blueray player on the market AND play every decent playstation branded game over a 15 year period I would otherwise miss.



My plan?



A hacked Revolution playing all my media wirelessly streamed in each of the bedroom and the kitchen, and a single PS3 in the living room.

I forget exactly when DVD came out. sometime around 1997 or so, I think. I remember it wasn't until around 2002 that my local, suburban, blockbuster had a decent amount of DVD's to rent, so it took about 5 years for DVD to become standard. Using this logic, HD-DVD or Blu-ray (and especially blu-ray) won't become adopted by the masses until the PS3 is near the end of its lifetime, that is unless millions of people buy the very expensive PS3. So it pretty much comes to this: if the PS3's GAMES are not significantly better as a result of blu-ray, it will be another format failure for sony--short term anyway. The other solution is to advertise, lie, or otherwise force the public into adopting the player through perception.

I won't be using my game console to watch movies because I'll probably only get a Nintendo.

As far as the next format is concerned, they need to sell movies, not discs. Once you buy a movie, you should own that movie and be permitted to download it, have it on VHS, DVD, or whatever the hell is next. A system like this will pave the way for just having the data stored in memory.

Also, just hit enter once after a paragraph for your comments. It seems the new script automatically double spaces between your paragraphs.

I won't be buying the add on for my 360, the 400 I already spent to not have it work for 3 weeks is enough. Not to mention the gigantic amount of complaints about DVD playback on the 360. I will however watch blu-ray when I get my ps3, especially since it will be included at no extra charge.



I suppose microsoft could improve their DVD playback through an update over live or disc when you buy the player, but even with that, I still do not want to pay for an add on. I have purchased one add on ever (Sega CD) and that's because it was $30 at a going out of business sale.

I don't see much of a difference of BR-DVD versus upscaled DVD. Let me know if you see a huge improvement:



http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2666&p=13

Are standalone players ever good? The only ones I've seen were over at other peoples houses, and I hated them. They always just seem to cumbersome to work with. XBMC FTW! can life get better? i submit that it cannot.

howard stringer, are you reading this thread?



two words: channel conflict.

http://m3mnoch.wordpress.com/2006/01/06/the-blu-ray-of-damocles/



awesome. i love being right.



m3mnoch.

Everyone is ommitting that Stand-anlone HD-DVD players run from a pricerange of $499-$1000. Blu-ray will probably be significantly more expensive even if its a bargan brand.



I only hope that the HD-DVD on 360 is USB so that I can use it on my pc seeing as how I dont see myself buying a 360.

Movies have been crap on consoles until the 360. The XBox played them slightly better than the PS2, but it was still off. Thankfully, the 360 drive actually supports burned media now (you can upgrade via CDR!).



Never, and I mean NEVER play a burned DVD in ANY Sony product. That includes their DVD burners. Unless you like changing lasers or replacing your unit. 3 PS2s, 1 5-disc DVD player, 1 portable DVD player, and 1 Dual Layer external burner...all branded Sony....dead to burned media (BURNED WITH THE SONY BURNER *grrr*). $30 generic brand DVD player with burned media...no problems. Go figure.



Do you think I care about Bluray after that? If it's made by Sony, it's crap. That's what I've decided. Except their TVs. Those are nice.

Well, considering my HDTV only has two component inputs and I just got HD Cable, I kind of have to use my 360 as a DVD player. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this particular situation.

There's a factual mistatement in the article, guys. Virtually every site covering CES was showing HD DVD players starting at $500 and running up to $1000, not $1800 as you state as a fact in the article.



"Both Blu-ray and HD DVD stand-alone players will be hitting the market in the coming months with an entry price in the neighborhood of $1,800. "



Think you might want to fix your error?

"Nobody's forcing you to upgrade to anything."



Until companies start releasing movies, etc only on the HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs. Then if I want these movies or whatever, I will have to upgrade.



These big companies never seem to factor in the poorer people.

I saw Bill Gate's keynote at CES where he demoed a Bourne Identity movie that was on a HD-DVD. The additional features on that disc that were not on the DVD include:



1. a listing of actors (by thier photo) in the order in which they appeared in a track.

2. The ability to click on an actor and get a bio.

3. The ability to twiddle with these features and not interrupt the movie's playback.



He also talked about the following:

1. The ability to get a dynamic list of pop ups (like pop up videos, remember that?) to add little factiods about the movie or whatever's going on in that specific scene.



So yea, I think it is fair to say that in addition to a higher resolution, HD-DVD and I assume BR will have features that cannot (or will not) be reproduced on DVDs.

I don't have an High Definition television and I will almost guarantee that I will not be watching either HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray movies during this coming generation of consoles.

cosmic:



Infinifilms, notably Austin Powers 3, have the "pop-up video" factoid option. They often link to the special features, such as a blooper of the scene you are currently watching. I'm sure they could be programmed to include such things as "These actors last worked together in 1989 on the film ..."



Something about the way the Infinifilms are made, however, makes them unbearable to watch normally. What, I can't rewind without going back to the last chapter start? Horrible.

What's the use of all this high-tech crap if the movies/games are still the same old crap, except the graphics and video quality are slightly better and now you've paid twice as much as you did for your last generation of hardware (be it a 360 or a VCR).



Face it, new formats are useless consumer garbage. I hate all this crap about making the formats better. Look, if you don't have good movies or games now technology or better graphics will make them better.



Similar to the current Health care crisis in Canada, they continue to build newer and "better" hospitals, but we've got no freaking good doctors!

I dont have a 360...but I plan on getting one eventually...I'm waiting for a price drop, and for then to make them in black...and no, I dont just want a black face plate.



I do have an HDTV, I've had in for around 2 years, and have some channels in HD...and its clear to me that it is indeed the future. and I would love it if my movies were all High-Def.



I have a sony tv & dvd player...and they both have been working great for years.



***************QUESTION***************

Does anyone know how much space (gb) a 2 hour long movie in High Def with DD (or DTS) audio takes up???



Because sony keeps touting its 50 gb disks...and I'm really doubting you need even half that for a HD movie.

You should also consider the cost of the hi-def disc itself, not just the player. The PS3 may saturate the market with BRD players, but if the BRDs themselves cost substantially more than the now much cheaper DVDs or the similar HD-DVDs, then it's a wash.

Most people are plenty happy with DVD as it is right now, and those with an HDTV would like something nicer if they can have it. Pretty simple.



So in a few years when you buy an shiny new HDTV (once the prices become reasonable), and want to play supercrisp images on it, DVD won't be able to do that for you.



By the way, Blu-ray has many other features as well, including fully interactive menus and seamless playback with special optional content. if you only buy movies for the movie itself: enjoy the cooler menus, and the better quality (not to mention the fact that BD discs are more durable than DVD discs).



So you can argue as much as you want to right now, but come back in 5 years and tell me you are making the right decision. In the mean time, enjoy your VHS collection.

Cost is a big deal...if PS3 cost more than $400 and Blue Ray Disc cost way more than normal DVD's and more than HD-DVD's (Which all signs point to that being the case), than Sony may struggle to get people to buy into Blu-Ray.



We know that Sony charges a rediculous amount for UMD's, so imagine Blu-Ray cost. Also it is clear with the recent announcement that Elder Scrolls Oblivion will fit on 1 normal double sided DVD disc for the 360, that there is no real benefit in having a HD-DVD disc for games.

Please remember that the Unreal 3 engine that Oblivion uses is definately Next Gen and uses all sorts of new more efficient methods of creative very real lifelike 3D worlds that won't take up as much space as everyone thought. Only careless developers would need more than 8.5 GB of space for a current generation game. PC games have pushed the limits of HD space for years and I don't know of a single one that takes 8.5Gb of space on a HD.



With Blu-Ray The read times are slower than DVD, so I bet you will see most games for PS3 will ship on normal dual layer DVD and not Blu-Ray. Sony won't say this until it actually starts happening cause they want consumers to think that Blu-Ray offers the PS3 an advantage in gaming, which is bull crap.



Standalone HD-DVD players costing $499 will be out this March! That means that by Christmas they will probably drop $99 or so. I don't think any Blu-Ray products will be anywhere near that pricepoint except for the PS3 presumably. And what if MS prices the HD-DVD add on between $99 - $150. That would be a very inexpensive add on given the entry cost of HD-DVD normally. They would sell like hot cakes. And when everyone sees second Gen 360 games compared to first Gen PS3 games, by Chrismas 2006 or early 2007 when PS3 is realeased in US, there may be no reason left for many to purchase an overhyped, overrated PS3.

"Does anyone know how much space (gb) a 2 hour long movie in High Def with DD (or DTS) audio takes up???"



Basic HD television, 2 hours: 25 GB

http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/



"Because sony keeps touting its 50 gb disks...and I'm really doubting you need even half that for a HD movie."



An HD movie would certainly be higher quality (higher bitrate with multi-track audio, DTS, etc...) than HD television, so 50 GB will be a good fit for movies (+ extras). The Bluray specification mentions 4 layer discs, which hold up to 200 GB (25 GB per layer). For example, one of these discs could hold the LOTR trilogy in HD plus have enough room left over for the extras...

i agree with jon. cost is a huge issue. that's why i think hd-dvd will win the format war. which really is a bummer because blu-ray is a much cooler format. it's just too damn expensive.



also, it's about being ready for anything that comes down the pipe. future-proofed, so to speak. microsoft has done that with the 360, but the ps3 has priced itself out of that game. they've got too much money up front in the blu-ray player. especially for the demand.



http://m3mnoch.wordpress.com/2006/01/09/console-media-play-by-play-rundown/



i mean, ask your friends if current dvd's are high definition or not. i bet most of them won't know. my fairly geeky friends and family think that because their dvd player is 'progressive scan' that it counts. they are comparing it to vhs, not standard def vs. high def.



high definition dvd's are soooooo far away from being mainstream it's not even funny.



hell. we can't even get them convinced that hdtv is worth it.



m3mnoch.



p.s. i'm trying not to make my posts so damn long, offloading content to my site to help. let me know if i tend to get too long winded on the comments.

Murc:

H.264/VC-1 1080p ~12Mb/s (5.5Gb per hour)

MPEG2 1080p ~23Mb/s (10Gb per hour)

Dolby TrueHD ~18Mb/s (8Gb per hour)

DDPlus ~6.144 (3Gb per hour)



BluRay will use (at first) MPEG2 and DDplus so a singlelayer 25Gb disc holds about 2 hours (However it is possible to get 3 hours using VC-1)



HD DVD will use H.264 and DDplus so a single layer 15Gb disc holds about 2 hours



Blu Ray Specification includes up to 50Gb discs (they do not include the 100Gb and 200Gb in the spec, so much like early DVD burners do not support dual layer burning, there is no guarantee a current blu-ray player could read discs of more that 50Gb)



I imagine Dual Layer discs will be used for Titles with Dolby TrueHD sound tracks (Hi quality lossless audio)and therefore DualBD could store 4 hours and Dual HDDVD could store 2.5 hours

As soon as I read "Both Blu-ray and HD DVD stand-alone players will be hitting the market in the coming months with an entry price in the neighborhood of $1,800." I thought "Someone doesn't care too research before posting. Blu-Ray will get to that price, but HD-DVD will be well below that. Every tech site worth going to knows that, and most that arent. And I thought you guys were branched off of a tech site.

So if the blu-Ray drives can read normal DVD's then PS3 developers don't have to make games on the new Blu-ray disks then ?.

Anyhow i'm getting a Revolution so i don't care too much.I've never used a console to play DVD's .Why put wear on a console when dvd players are less than $50.00 .MS and Sony are freaking nuts,I think both companies have lost the plot .That's what happened to Atari ,They freaking lost it by bitching about other companies and trying to look better and not doing their own shit right..

Enough with the format wars.



Sony tends to come up with really cool new technologies that bomb. What the heck ever became of the mini-disk? It was too expensive, nobody cared about it, everybody was comfortable with their CDs, then MP3s came along. KaBooM- may the minidisc rest in peace.



But let's not forget VHS vs BetaMax, either!



Oh yes, and let's not forget how offended half of youth America was when Sony decided it was going to wage war on piracy by installing evil-ware on people's computers. I was shopping for computers at CompUSA and I didn't want to look at the Sony models because they're trying to clinch the free flow of information. I said I'd forgive Sony someday, but the salesman said he wouldn't.



Sony has become sort of a poster child for evil corporate America. They need to start remodeling their image before they try and win a format war which will be decided by consumers who are pissed with the company.

"it's a feature that makes the likely PS3 price tag (and you know it's gonna be somewhere between $300 and $400) a little more palatable."



You actually think the PS3 is going to cost the same amount as an Xbox 360 when Sony have gone out of their way to brag about how you'll need to work extra hours just to afford one? Please...



Anyway, I'm not going to buy into the movie companies' BS scheme to make me upgrade to another player just so I can continue to watch movies at home. There is nothing wrong with DVDs and I see no reason at all to spend so much money on such a useless upgrade. The jump from VHS tapes to DVDs was more impressive... you no longer have to rewind. You can jump to any scene in the movie... etc. But with this? Whoop-de-doo, you can have higher resolution. As if the average person will even be able to notice a difference. Who cares... I'll invest my money into something worthwhile, like a Revolution, and save hundreds of dollars in the process.

I'll be using my PS3 to watch Bluray.

man i bet my right arm people will watch DVDs on BOTH systems and prolly never even USE the blu ray/hd dvd feature...i mean unless the movies are in friggin 3D or sumthin i really dont see the point..and since most of americans still have no idea wat 480p , 720p 1080i or 1080p means..im sure they'll stick to standard CHEAPER Dvds...

Given how bad a DVD player the PS2 was I don't think I'd ever consider using a console to play movies.



As for the format war, I'll wait till some movies are out then consider which way to go. Until then I'm happy to buy DVD's for as little as a fiver.